Id wager that the 1% that said that were deliberately being obtuse. I suggest that nature AND nurture are a self feeding cycle in most lives that teaches us to be what society expects (sometimes with a justifiably stereotypical reason). Its just an extra 2 bits. I think everything you said is more than reasonable.
I am always amazed by this stem fields are hostile towards women and because that they are not going. Sure, medicine was a men dominated career 100 years ago and that didn't stop women to be studying this career until being half of whom studies it. Sounds like a kind of bullshit of feminists to say this. Women should study what they want, not what a ideology or a person tells them
My thoughts are, Men are just backing away, and in time will disappear from the workforce and refuse to work for women, Gonna be looking for the female road crews. with a Hunk ( eye candy ) as a flag man. Power to MGTOW
Jordan Peterson said it perfectly, "Women's lives are going to be extremely difficult in the next twenty years. They will have no choice but to work, because Men simply won't, and those that are know the game, and will not financially support or carry the burdens of a woman! Everyone knows what's coming after that, and its going to be a complete and utter disaster."
Hi Christina. I liked what you had to say. I think your explanation seems reasonable to me and much more preferable than "rampant sexism" or "lack of ability." It is nice to know that there are intelligent capable women in the world, as well as men, but we like different things.
This is my opinion only. It seems to me that the desires of individuals are being bullied by the social levelers who seek to make all things alike. If more men get their creativity needs met with engineering and more women get their creativiy needs met by social sciences, what is the problem?
I think it's interesting that evem though you and I have the same stance on this problem,you choose to call yourself a feminist,and i would rather die that say I'm a feminist. I ,personally, refer to myself an equalitarian,because i believe that the term "feminism" is gendered and focuses mainly on one gender,rather than both of them (or all of them,depending on what you think about the number of genders)
I was an engineer in school and none of the male students wanted less women in the departments (far from it). I would bet in the current climate. Not only is it infinitely easier for a qualified women to get accepted into a STEM program at nearly ANY school, but it is obvious that every company out there would take any qualified women Engineers as employees over men (for many obvious reasons). Women are simply not showing up! If people want to argue that this is a societal effect. The parents of these women would certainly carry the vast majority of blame for steering the girls away from their potential interests in STEM. It is not societies responsibility to re-program women minds if the parents have steered them in a different direction.. If you feel differently, please understand that you wish to impose a structure of what-and-how parents must teach their children (good luck with that one). Frankly, I find the nurture aspect of this argument absurd. Women and men are different on so many levels (not better or worse, just different) and any one in a long term heterosexual marriage can attest to that. We are wired differently at the most basic levels with basic fundamental differences in our interests. The study of infants/toddlers (and adults) backs up this claim to an overwhelming degree. Cross cultural studies show that men value different things than women in the same ways no matter what culture they are raised in.. It is a similar situation for women. As a final point.. Why is there no outrage that there are not enough women plumbers, electricians, or coal miners? Why are feminists not encouraging women to work in the most dangerous professions where the risk of dying on the job is highest? It is only that STEM is a lucrative career path and Psychology and Women's-Studies is not as much. If Engineers were not as valued (at this moment in time.. maybe not as much in the future?) no one would care that women's interests were elsewhere. I find this whole topic a sad commentary on the current state of society. We are arguing about stuff we largely already know the answer to.
I aced my business math and statistic classes but I had no interest in working in an office all day. I chose to work in special education but I changed careers after a while because the pay was low and the job could be really stressful.
No, I don't have a problem with her analysis and she isn't necessarily wrong. All she did was allude to the idea that different interests and tendencies may rule our career and academic choices. The message is not incorrect but the venue IS strange. It tells me that she's got to make money from strange venues. It isn't unreasonable to point that out.
I agree, I do not have a strong passion for math but I enjoy people (haha! I gravitate towards people) who study physics and math and learning their perspective and their different thought process from my own. I enjoy learning theories on physics and reading the background and thoughts of physicists - their thought process is fascinating. When it comes to the math, I could excel if I really, really wanted to but as I said, I do not have a strong passion for it.
Being less interested and less talented are not mutually exclusive: women can be less interested in science because they're not intelligent enough to get it. Don't want to sound discriminatory, but I don't think it's productive to exclude a hypothesis just because it's not PC.
Children learn through imitation. Girls are looking at women for mentors and boys look at men. Women have made huge leaps in the past few decades. It’ll get better when we see our moms, aunts, friends, and role models exploring other interests and succeeding.
STEM on average is paid much better, and this is the reason more boys choose to go into that field. Not because they love it so much, but because our society pressures them, reducing their value to the amount of money they make. Men have to work their hand to the bone every day, because throughout their life they hear "you have to make money, it`s your obligation to provide for your family". If i had a dollar every time in my life that i heard something like that, i`d probably be able to provide for family with 3 kids without working one single fucking day.
I know this is an older video but this spoke to me. As a practicing engineer, engineering manager, and engineering director for over 2 decades, I regularly worked 60+ hours a week, when I was working a job with peak earning potential. Basically, I left for work before my neighbors and came home after my neighbors...but they were magically able to afford to live in my neighborhood, working significantly less hours. To be blunt, the average woman isn't stupid enough to work 5X12's in an easy week and 7X16's multiple times a quarter, for low-mid 6 figures. I was stupid enough to work like that and I did it for the love of the job...the love of invention. Even now, I work less hour in an easier industry, maybe averaging 50 hours a week, but I live on acreage and work 10-20 hours a week crafting things with my hands...on top of my job.
I can't even park my car without a feminist complaining ! They were about 7 feet into the next space with carts so I asked "can you please move over". They just ignored me so after 3 minutes I pulled in anyway. They they started yelling "are you talking to me" ? Like I was wanting to have sex with them. At 8:30 at night, with the headlights on they didn't notice a car with an EXHAUST LEAK for 3 minutes. And it was MY fault, ever after asking them politely ! I don't know if they actually ignored me or just didn't care since I was a man. But that is no excuse for their attitude !
Why do these "feminist" have to be so hostile to men ? What even happened to strong independent women from the 1970s ? Now they are all victims somehow and constantly want to fight. It is no wonder men have stopped helping women !
In my engineering class we started with 40 people. 5 quit, 4 women and 1 man. The women went on the much easier classes like nursing asst and travel that was only a few months and payed less, the 1 man went into HVAC that still took 1 YEAR in school and was harder to learn and physically demanding and paid much better. So even when they quit, the men still go into higher paying and engineering / technical fields. And that left a class of 35 people. 34 men and 1 woman. Nobody made the women quit and nobody gave her a hard time. Everyone got along fine. But to hear the feminist you would think the men were constantly slapping them on the ass and talking dirty jokes. It was the opposite ! She was friendly and the men were friendly and everyone was treated the same. And we were all there to learn. This was in the early 1990s.
Now if a feminist came in today , they would find all kinds of problems. Especially since there were no women engineering teachers, only men. The women taught the humanities and no men teachers in the humanities, except economics, a MATH related course. Feminist today only create problems !
"Lack of interest" is such a cop-out. We're all uninterested in things we suck at, duh. Look at the standardized testing where girls have every interest to do their very best, interest or not. Their performance still pales in comparison to boys. SAT Math II, SAT Physics, Informatics Olympiad, etc. etc. You name it.
Why is it so hard to admit that men are just better at engineering? What about track in Olympics, where the finals are almost always dominated by black men? Are the Olympics racist? Or is it just a fundamental GENETIC difference across different races?
Why is everyone so obsessed in the idea that everyone is created equally?
Took Cal 2 from a female professor, she was head of the mathematics department in this college. I had an issue and needed some help to figure something out, she was an excellent teacher. Stereotypes are generalizations, not rules.
Men are also more likely to be obsessive in nature, this can be beneficial or negative to the person. I once read a book from a musician who stated "Women can be just as good as men at playing the guitar, the differences is that a female will spend 2 hours practicing but a male will often spend 3-4 hours practicing." Women seek a more balanced life, they often consider working 30 hrs per week as being "full time" whereas men are much more likely to work 40-50 hours per week. This is good for the male, they make more money and get promotions at work, the downside is that they spend less time on their family and taking care of their health. When I had a philosophy class I had 20 male students and 1 female, after the first week the female dropped the class. Women are less likely to study the "hard sciences" and more likely to study the "soft sciences" in school. The differences are neurological in nature, left brain vs right brain, the idea of "equality" is not based upon reality, the sexes are different.
It's a fact that 90% of women hate engineering and all subjects related to it. Through out my (middle school) girls were all server by our(their) professor. When we would be ordered to build something, us guys would to everything by ourselves or even create a coalition of a sort and build at least one model of let's say (Truck or a House), but we would do it and probably hurt ourselves in the process since we were 10-14 at that time. Girls on the other hand would sit closest to our professor (male) and make him draw and even build their models and grade it as if they built it FFS. One time my friends and I (5 of us in total) built one model of Truck that was supposed to have strict measures and be movable of course, each of us got different grade based on how teacher viewed us (we're all white, we're from Serbia), but we couldn't do anything and girls got their shit done by professor and were awarded all with A's (what a surprise)
No matter what "obstacle" you may perceive dedicated people simply don't let these obstacles get in their way. David Hahn built a nuclear reactor at 17 in his backyard shed without proper materials or prior knowledge. Get the fuck outta here with that "patriarchy is holding me down" bullshit.
Misleading vividness – involves describing an occurrence in vivid detail, even if it is an exceptional occurrence, to convince someone that it is a problem; this also relies on the appeal to emotion fallacy.
Thats what often happens. When there is a case of sexism it is stretched. Even during the time of the 60s. Altho sexism was more common
I've been working as an Aerospace Engineer for 11 years. In college we started with 100 students and 18 finished. 2 were Female. I do not know what hostile environment people are talking about. Engineers are reclusive, socially awkward nerds. This is nonsense. It irritates me when people who major in some useless liberal arts degree start spouting nonsense about another field that they know nothing about.
If you woman are so smart, then why you getting guys with bold heads, lost hair and you are suspecting that you can have good looking kids with good hair. Men think smarter. Men wouldn't touch you if you would have no hair and if man would know that you will end up having kids with lost hair, that they will look like you with lost hair on the head.
I think diversity in fields of study is great. But I’m not talking about gender, race, age, sexuality, religion, ect. I’m talking about intellectual diversity. And sure, maybe encouraging more women into stem *might* bring more intellectual diversity, but a better way of doing that is to look at what people’s interests are, how they think, what they study, or even what political stance they have.
This lady is a top grade example of what feminism should be. I am quite against feminism in general which appears to me to be a hateful misandrist ideology and then we have a presentation like this which utilises evidence and forms rational conclusions in a balanced way. Well done on leading the way for feminism as it should be!
It's definitely worth acknowledging that there are general differences between the careers men and women pursue, but we can't forget (especially if we are employing science here) to ask "WHY?". And yes the answer is probably quite multi-dimensional. A few studies will not cut it, particularly when we add on the questions of WHO is designing/performing (and even funding) the studies, and where might their blind spots be? It's too easy to dismiss the issue based on the facts as we understand them now, and to walk away from the question. If it turns out that people just have different interests because of innate underlying predispositions, fine, but let's not pretend we don't already know that human behavior is largely influenced by conditioning/access/opportunity/culture/etc.
Hi, I'm from Sri Lanka and we have the same issue in here. I was an engineering student in University of Moratuwa.
Please look on the student mix in Sri Lankan public universities. Huge % of students in engineering faculties are male and medicine, arts faculties are female. They are selected based on the stream (math, bio, commerce, art) selected by the student for A/L exam (totally free choice of each student). And the students in highest marks go to universities. (Highest marks in the country only get to go to engineering and medicine fields.)
Looks like when students make free choices they choose different fields by their own interest.
In India , it is basically expected of you , whether you are male or female, by your parents , relatives or even just society, to study engineering and get an engineering job. It is the same as feminists wanting to force women into STEM to boost their numbers. If you look at India you will find that the majority of women who study engineering switch industries as soon as possible and try to get into non-engineering roles such as management, teaching, fashion and retail , food etc and of those who do get employed as engineers and remain, especially in IT, they rarely rise up the ranks or are recognized as good engineers.
This doesn't just apply to women its for men too who choose engineering just to get a job. The result is you get engineers who are not interested in their work and are sub-standard. So what I'm trying to say is that by pushing women (like feminists in the west are doing) or men into STEM fields when they aren't interested in it is only going to cause more harm to STEM disciplines by saturating the job market with incompetent employees.
Feminists are complaining about the low numbers of females in STEM sectors, they also claim to work towards to equality of both genders and other disenfranchised groups in society.
So what are they doing about the low numbers of men in a female dominated fields like nursing? or are they simply stereotyping men as incapable of providing care to others so they don't bother??
If I am not mistaken, there is a difference in M/F scores in math SATs(early indicator); should say something. How many female innovators(requires no education, just imagination) or inventors(major-primary, i.e.automobile, airplane, computer, etc.)can you think of ?
Also, when ya keep hearing "If you pursue education in this field, you'll be ostracized and looked down upon by educators and employers", WHY would you go into that field? That's why letting these kind of falsehoods reign unchallenged is damaging.
I am a reverse engineer and programmer. It's hard to attract women to this field. It's hard and yeilds results over many many years of effort. Most don't like this field and women aren't interested. It would be cool to talk with a woman on this topic ...
Why Do Women Shun STEM?
Because feminism and gender studies teaches them that they can acquire that same “privilege” that men work quite hard for, if only they print signs and whine loud enough about it.
John Hall feminists are mostly talking heads and no shows of talents. I pass no heed to them. I am in many hubs & forums for mathematics, mechanical engineering, electronics, 3D modelling, CG animation, etc. I am the only one woman in few groups and that doesn't put me off. I have noticed that women show poor participation in STEM hubs and won't join them. I don't understand that.
The reason this new wave of feminist choose to focus so heavily on STEM while ignoring the areas women thrive or other areas where men dominate but women don't want at all to take part in such as an oil rig attendant or sewer cleaner is because historically society has deemed science and mathematics as extremely valuable and difficult. Rightly so, our entire world revolves around engineering and mathematics and science and there are very few people who can do it and many spaces to be filled. However, maybe there is a case to be made that as a society, we need to reevaluate the value we put on fields that women thrive in.
Scientisits have had their most productive lives between 15 and 25 . This is the time most females think about starting a family. Is it possible to restructure the educational system so that it gives opportunities to women in their 30's or 40's? -- to pursue a career in the sciences ?
Its a combination of ability and interest for me. Ability reflected by SAT scores . That doesn't mean there are no women. There are less women than men considerably. Olympiads and SATs account for that. Also they tend to choose different courses as you said. Now the combination of these two factors make the last outcome look sexist. There is no discrimination in Scandinavia or Canada USA. The number of female University grads are more than or approximately equal to men in these countries.
I was accused of sexism when I pointed this out. It has been scientifically proven time and time again that women and men tend to have different interests. Why is that such a bad thing to say? Modern feminism doesn't like science and biology, when it doesn't benefit their cause. When they hear that men are about 50 % physically stronger in the upper body and about 40 % stronger in the lower body, they frown. Especially if you're a man saying it. There is nothing wrong with being different, but they misunderstand the difference between being equal and being the same.
What the data at the end about women being equally gifted in math and verbal abilities suggest is that, for women, mathematical giftedness is linked more to general intelligence than it is for men. A woman who is a prodigy will be mathematically gifted (and math may or may not be her primary interest), while a man can be fairly mathematically gifted (and interested in pursuing it) without being an actual prodigy, basically leading to over-representation of men in engineering and math fields.
Okay, so forget STEM. Where are all the great female writers, artists, composers, philosophers, sculptresses, etc. These don't require math skills, only talent, hard work, and drive. So ladies, stop blaming men for your inability to compete in the workplaces, and get yourself off the sofa. Let's see what you can do. Write us a great novel. Not a romance novel either. LOL
I think it comes down to toys. Think that sounds ridiculous? Lego or doll(which is face and imaginary communication)? Toy truck/horse-riding. Boy toys are better for development or 'active' toys can be given to girls or boys. Female toys(which is where action figures of sorts come in), they can be but little kids focus or look for something better/more fun. Kids like blowing bubbles.(The female version of Nerf seems a bit unnecessary) If you are part of a sport even if it's one sex only you'll hear over and over about how it's special or should be done by your sex from adults and other kids.
Why is it that when given no toys kids make up something star wars like. Or force-field? Running around (or running home to get to some time your parent told you to get to). Siblings take care of their younger siblings. Is it fun/interesting?
BTW, looking at the sorry state of the world in general, I'm not sure we need more technological wonders.
We seem to be using our current crop of "toys" in the most banal of ways. Just more tools to do evil to one another.
Only a certain subset of ridiculously brilliant, single minded, borderline autistic, socially oblivious, generally assholish men, have ever furthered our basic understanding of reality...
Isaac Newton is their posterboy.
Funny thing, girls in engineering don't face this so called discrimination in college because everyone is too damned stressed to start stereotyping. I'm in mech. engr. myself and I can safely say I don't feel the so called "oppression". Sure I get a few sexist comments from time to time from the ignorant, but I take it in stride. It's a hard world out there, might as well start building that thick skin in college and start fighting for what you want instead of playing the blame game.
Much better to make them eat their words than to play the victim.
I don't do well with emotional stressors. I dropped chemistry not because I couldn't compute, but because the dry, stone cold chemist instructors made it so emotionally difficult I couldn't keep invested. Here in Conservative Texas we have what I call 'teach by trauma'. Basically, they keep making things emotionally stressful to 'challenge' you. I didn't pay for my classes to challenge my emotional stress resilience, but that's reality here. As far as the material, I was learning it, and compute just fine.
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